🌈 A. Wilcox delicately

Every time you write code that requires Chrome or CEF or Electron, just remember: you are giving Google control over you and your users.

You are letting them dictate what you can and cannot do. You are letting them view your user's potentially private activities (URLs are always sent to Google without Debian's patch set).

You are becoming a part of their toxic culture, their neocapitalism.

Remember that.

@sorin Chromium Embedded Framework. Spotify and Slack are the two biggest Linux apps I can think of that use it.

@awilfox @sorin Do you know why Firefox is not supporting such apps? (not anymore after they ditched FirefoxOs)

@djoerd @awilfox @sorin This annoys me to no end! They did have something like that for a while some years ago, but then stopped. Electron is increasingly popular, and that's great for Linux because we get apps we never would've gotten otherwise. But why doesn't Mozilla make an alternative? They have to see the potential! Instead they make screenshot tools and the millionth way to send files over the internet...

@forteller @djoerd @awilfox Don't really see what they could offer to compete with Electron.

@forteller @djoerd @awilfox Electron is made by Github. There is also Muon which is a fork maintained by Brave.


> URLs are always sent to Google without Debian's patch set

wh... what?

@rrix @awilfox discord, and atom, and visual studio code as well


> URLs are always sent to Google without Debian's patch set

does this mean what I suspect it does?! o_o

Without Electron, I wouldn't have many productivity apps like Slack, Remember the Milk and so on on Linux.

@mdfrg there's two ways I can go here

The first is: Yes you would, they'd just be written in a better framework that is not controlled, owned by, and monetised by Google

The other is: Then maybe those apps aren't worth using.

@awilfox @mdfrg I definitely vote for "not worth using." They offer precious little enhanced usability over a console app for IRC, yet consume upwards of 1.5GB of memory just to have two channels open. Insanity. But, hey, the web is the future!

(grumbles something about my lawn and kids these days.)

@mdfrg @awilfox By "they" I meant "Slack". Apologies for the confusing sentence.

@vertigo @awilfox @mdfrg Slack even has a built-in IRC gateway

People who insist on using the app can do so, those of us who care about good software can use the gateway with our IRC client of choice

@troubleMoney @vertigo @awilfox does a IRC client have message archive sync with search and build in file sharing tool?

@mdfrg @vertigo @awilfox It's a chat application

Anything you definitely need to archive should be done through email, anything else will be in chat logs, and file sharing should be done via network share like a rational person

@troubleMoney @mdfrg @vertigo network share?!

That sounds like either Samba (proprietary protocol even if the implementation is open source), or NFS which is complex as all hell to set up in a small business.

Unfortunately file sharing has never really gotten attention by people who care about networking, security, and good UX.

Apple's AFP was almost good and had a BSD licensed version but they got rid of it.

@awilfox @troubleMoney @vertigo
I really really hope he meant something like nextcloud. Cause if not, that's the reason people call us nerds and don't want to hear us. Try to explain how to download file from your FTP server to your mom's female friend vs 'I send you this on facebook'. No need to get angry folks, it's how the world is.

@mdfrg @awilfox @vertigo Hang on, I thought slack was for offices and such, i.e. somewhere with something approaching an IT person to set up network shares

@troubleMoney @awilfox @vertigo
My use case is a collaboration project I work with non tech people that we do in a spare time not in office. We use Slack to communicate and share files. It's vastly integrated (google driver, trello etc) and provides nice UX and it's dumb easy to use. Now try to convince those people that don't kniw what TLS or webdav is to configure an IRC client, install ZNC and learn how to use FTP

@troubleMoney @vertigo @mdfrg so yeah even if you have an office with dedicated IT staff, the only way you can hope to have SMB or NFS work properly in ways users can tolerate is with something like LDAP.

and let's not even start with the shift to remote work. then you need VPN to log in with LDAP/Kerb and use SMB/NFS, or worse, run everything public.

we don't have good solutions to these problems yet. and we need them. badly.

@awilfox @troubleMoney @vertigo That's the first reason why WannaCry, Petya & others gained their momentum. With better solutions, even Vault9 zerodays would't be such a problem. I truly respect @nextclouders for what they do to bring USABLE UX, SECURITY and EFFICIENT file sharing together.

@awilfox @troubleMoney @mdfrg @vertigo
Regarding the network share, if more people actually wanted simple networked filesystems, everything would have at least a 9p client available.
On *NIX systems you can get a client and server through plan9port though.

@awilfox @vertigo @mdfrg @troubleMoney (or, people who want to use something more targeted to the average user can use matrix, which can speak to irc and Slack servers)

@mdfrg @awilfox @troubleMoney No, but I rarely ever need those things.

However, if you do, there's always Citadel BBS software. It offers a web-based UI as well as classical text-mode interface, live chat, supports file uploads/downloads, et. al. It's actually pretty neat.

But, again, I only need the ability to chat. I tend to send files over e-mail, and important information tends to get archived on wikis.

Your usecase may vary.

@troubleMoney @awilfox @mdfrg Thanks for the looooooong thread my otherwise snarky comment generated though. It was interesting to read!

@vertigo @troubleMoney @awilfox
BBS FTW! I'm afraid I'm too young to remember those things and it's already too late to use them for people not familiar with the culture.

@mdfrg @awilfox @troubleMoney I disagree with that assessment; Uncensored! BBS gets new users periodically. Not terribly frequently, but often enough to say that it can still appeal to new users.

Some prefer the web interface, but some actually do prefer the SSH interface.

It's pretty awesome, actually. I do wish it were more popular though. Would love a console Mastodon interface that had more or less the look and feel of Citadel, for example.

@vertigo @awilfox @mdfrg

the problem is that Slack offers a better experience to newcomers than IRC does.

@kaniini @vertigo @mdfrg this is more of a failure of IRC to evolve, more than a success of Slack. Though I suppose it's the same end result.

@awilfox @kaniini @vertigo
It's not a problem of any shortcomings of the protocol, but rather the lack of good client with modern UX. dev should start to realize not everyone want to have a robust win95 experience

@vertigo @awilfox
You can convince the convinced as much as you want but (sad) truth is, as far as IM /chat apps are concerned is more a question of who uses what not what technology is more RAM efficientband superior. Besides, Slack is just different service than Irc, it's designed for different needs and workflow so you're comparing apples to oranges here.

@mdfrg @vertigo I agree that the issue is who uses what instead of what solution is technologically and UI superior.

However I don't really agree Slack and IRC are different use cases. Channels, some invite only, allowing users to talk to each other and PM. Slack adds file sharing like DCC but otherwise it's just plain old IRC reimplemented IMO.

@awilfox @vertigo
Agreed. It's mostly better looking Irc. Also, since I'm not that familiar with Irc: does it provide message sync and search? Does it use TLS?

@mdfrg @vertigo It doesn't do message sync unless you use ZNC which is more software to set up, and its client side so everyone has to set it up. I don't know of any message search beyond grep on ZNC logs (or find in page if you open in text editor).

It usually uses TLS these days. It can support TLS only, TLS and plaintext, or plaintext only.

@awilfox @vertigo
So you see, there are, in a fact, some substantial upgrades to UX made by Slack devs. You cannot expect a client to know how to setup ZNC, but you can send them link to Slack desktop app download page

I'm more of a user than a dev so you're giving me a choice between using some nice piece of software that I need or not using at all.

@awilfox I’m not familiar with Debian but I’d love to know more about that patch set!

@awilfox @amdt Chromium and Electron are two different things, the Debian patch is for chromium, not the underlying web rendering engine shared with Electron.
Electron apps don't send URLs to Google, you are either misguided or spreading FUD.
Actually, one of the most privacy respecting browsers, Brave (brave.com), is based on an Electron fork (Muon).

@fabricedesre @amdt this seems like misunderstanding.

Brave uses Chromium with changes, which does remove Google tracking, in addition to replacing ads on pages with Brave ads. Cite: arstechnica.com/information-te

Muon is not a fork of Electron. It is a framework similar to Electron, but based on the Brave fork of Chromium instead of CEF.

I'll Wireshark Atom later today.

@awilfox @amdt Chromium is built on top of Blink, a web rendering engine. It adds all the "chrome" part of the browser like bookmark management, sync, etc.

So is Electron, which adds nodejs integration to Blink to build apps.

About Muon (which I know pretty well), just read the Readme: "Muon is a fork of the Electron framework which is currently used in the Brave web browser."

And yes, maybe you should wireshark products *before* making claims...

@fabricedesre @amdt I have already wiresharked before, but will do it over to 1) have logs easily accessible, 2) see if anything has changed in what it hits / what protocols it uses (QUIC, SPDY, or just HTTP), 3) use the current version.

I don't see GAIA in Electron any more, so that's progress, but there's definitely more than Blink in Electron; Muon's readme clearly says it uses Chromium source with patches. Blink itself can't support Chrome extensions, for example.

@fabricedesre @amdt @awilfox Electron uses chromium. chromium's privacy policy page refers to google's privacy page, good luck to find wich parts apply to chromium or not… just because *you* trust google/electron/spyware analytics fans (electron devs community) doesn't mean those who dont are "spreading FUD"…

"one of the most privacy respecting browsers" brave does browser-in-the-middle to replages ads with it own, without user's consent (opt out-baspfed), it's the opposite of privacy-respecting

@devnull @fabricedesre @amdt @awilfox technically your whole toot is allégation without any slightest beginning of proof, so technically, it looks quite FUDy to me.

@a_geek_otter @fabricedesre @amdt @awilfox *sigh* Yeah, just because you don't know that Brave pretend to make "privacy friendly ads" to justify their action, it's necessiraly "FUD"


@devnull @fabricedesre @amdt @awilfox your toot was about chromium, I answer about chromium. I don’t know about brave, and don’t care.

@a_geek_otter @fabricedesre @amdt @awilfox No, my toot way about both. And no, it's not FUD, just a fact that chromium's website page gives very few info, and refers to google's privacy policy, but maybe you should RTFW (Reda The Fucking Website) before falsely accusing me…


@awilfox @amdt @fabricedesre @a_geek_otter Saying that Electron uses chromium is not FUD either, nit only it's a fact, but it's also clearly stated in their README on their repo project

"The Electron framework lets you write cross-platform desktop applications using JavaScript, HTML and CSS. It is based on Node.js and Chromium"


@a_geek_otter @fabricedesre @amdt @awilfox Also, you don't even say what seems "FUD" to you. You didn't mention chromium in your 1st reaction. And since my toot is about botg brave injecting its own ads, electron using chromium's code, AND chromuim's unclear privacy policy ("google privacy policy apply for stuff"), your answer isn't "about chromium", it's a generic answer

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