Libre software is about empowering users.
It's about the users having rights, instead of developers having rights.
This is fundamental and non-negotiable.
When you purposefully and deliberately shut out a significant portion of your community over your personal feelings, you are taking away the rights of your users.
Libre software developers should be dedicated to making adoption of libre software easier. Better user interfaces and experiences. Wider compatibility. That's how we all win.
Put another way: I really hate x86 and Wayland.
The x86 platform is a disaster and a constant source of headaches. I would prefer not to ever touch any x86 machines. Yet I am consistently fixing issues in them for @AdelieLinux so users have choice.
Similarly, I think Wayland is a fool's project and that the effort going in to NIHing a display technology should be invested into solidifying X11 instead. But we still offer Wayland as a second option in Adélie for those who prefer it.
As seen by your example of x86 and wayland, there's often a tradeoff between empowering users and maintenance burden.
I think it's good that you support x86 and wayland in AdelieLinux, even though you don't like it, and have every right to not do it.
Eg. you could say that wayland-related packages should be maintained by someone who likes wayland, or dropped if no such person is found, and that'd be IMO perfectly fine. That'd be sacrificing part of the empowerment of users over your burden, not your feelings.
OTOH, if you said that you will never accept wayland package into your repositories, even if someone else takes care of all the burden it creates, then I'd say it's against the spirit of Free Software. Because that'd be sacrificing part of the empowerment of users to your feelings. That would be spending extra effort to make sure $feature will never be added.
Now let's think of accepting MIME emails. If someone objects to it, then probably it interacts with some software in a bad way.
So accepting such emails is additional burden for some (all?) developers.
But would they still be against MIME if someone volunteered to fix all problems MIME creates? I don't think they would.
@Wolf480pl I already wrote a patch and sent it. It was denied.
Someone else I know sent basically the same patch two weeks before. Denied.
@awilfox Was Wayland not born originally from X developers brainstorming a wishlist of what they'd want to do in a hypothetical X12 if they could break compatibility? X11 is held back by 30 years of backward-compatibility at this point.
X12 hypothetical was written by a completely different group, 3 years after Wayland started. The X12 spec deliberately calls out network transparency and framebuffer support as critical, while Wayland does away with network transparency ("no one cares" per the Wayland dev I spoke to) and virtually no compositors support fbdev.
I'd support what X12 wanted to be; Wayland falls short of that. Maybe with extensions. But then we're right back where we were with X11.
@awilfox @AdelieLinux From the distro maintainer perspective, I can understand not liking Wayland. It's new, it doesn't play nicely with existing applications, it's not necessary, etc. From the perspective of a programmer, I have to disagree with you. Wayland is the answer to a lot of old and fermenting problems. As such, I personally welcome it. No one has to use it, that's the choice of the user. However, to develop is the choice of the developer, not the user. People often forget that.
@awilfox Wayland is to X11 what Ubuntu and derivatives are to Debian
@awilfox This. This *so* much. It is not only a fundamental right, but also simply a core part of the libre software ethos.
(That said, user rights and dev rights aren't necessarily mutually exclusive...but I see the point you're trying to make.)
I might have to quote this somewhere; it seems like such a basic principle, but you've summed it up quite well and I definitely think we all need a good reminder from time to time (some *much* more than others)
@awilfox I'm gonna need a lot more context to understand this take
@ben the mailing lists for Alpine Linux have been migrated to software that prevents you from sending a multipart message that contains HTML.
This breaks a lot of users. Almost all ML software just relays the text/plain part. And since the list used to accept HTML mail some mobile MUAs are "stuck" remembering that "this email prefers HTML". The stock iOS and Android clients don't have an ability to turn this off (cont.)
@ben This is an issue not only because of the growing trend that people use their phones, but also for accessibility purposes. There are no real alternative MUAs for iPhone, and the Android alternatives we've been discussing the past few weeks don't support the screen reader APIs properly.
When the maintainer of the ML software was confronted with this fact by an actual blind contributor to Alpine, said contributor was basically told to shove it.
While this may end up being a good thing for our distro, since you know, we use a respectable ML software (GNU Mailman), I still hate this for Alpine. I don't think they were aware of the political shitstorm that their ML migration was going to have. And I don't think they have the manpower available to do another migration. As it is, this migration was done by the author of the other ML software. (Make of that what you will.)
@awilfox ah, yes, in that case I fully agree with you
(there have been some people misusing the word "accessibility" to mean something closer to "no rules", so I had to be sure)
@awilfox That said, always punch fascists.
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