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So yeah forgive me if I think your whole belief about Marx being this god based on The Three Paragraphs Of The Communist Manifesto I Read is more than a bit stupid.

@woozle @Elizafox

Woozle

we've talked about this "assuming people can't be that unreasonable" thing

c'mon now

@sydneyfalk @Elizafox I know, but... like... I also don't want to assume that anyone is that hero-worshipping.

I mean, Marx was a smart guy, and I wouldn't have a problem with people saying that.

He also had at least one really terrible idea.

Pretty much every smart person who came up with great ideas had at least one really terrible part that's not as well known.

This is why we don't worship people as heroes.

If anyone is doing that for anyone, then that's kind of trivially wrong.

@woozle @Elizafox

> I also don't want to assume that anyone is that hero-worshipping.

O_O

> This is why we don't worship people as heroes.

have you MET HUMANITY

seriously

> If anyone is doing that for anyone, then that's kind of trivially wrong.

But it DOES happen. Let's be honest: A lot of kids do this with their parents, sometimes into early teen years even.

And let's be MORE honest: A lot of people just don't fucking grow up at all, in any meaningful way, past those years.

@sydneyfalk @Elizafox

I'm not talking about humanity; I'm talking about US ;-)

Like, people we actually respect.

I wasn't clear about that because I'm still trying to formulate what I mean...

But, like, if someone came on here saying that some historical figure or some modern politically-influential figure was just perfect and everything they said was true, I'd kind of know (without having to think about it) not to take them seriously, at least by default.

It's kind of a red flag.

@woozle @Elizafox

> someone came on here saying

here's the thing

NOBODY knows all their biases

NOBODY knows all their hero worships

NOBODY

so the people saying it?

they're waving a red flag, and awesome, they're easy to avoid

the people who DON'T say it, but still have some hero they worship somewhere? who have enough intellect to justify the worship long enough that it's stable and 'seems real'?

THEY are fucking scary and THEY will look past so many things to see what they want

@Elizafox @woozle

human beings can, as a whole, potentially justify anything

statistically speaking: no matter how terrible the idea, at least a few people with higher education and reasonably high levels of emotional awareness WILL STILL BELIEVE IT.

human belief is inherently unrelated to actual reality, and likely always will be -- but this does not correlate with educational capability as much as people like to imagine, is all.

that's actually a good example, now that I think of it. O_o

@sydneyfalk @Elizafox

> human beings can, as a whole, potentially justify anything

Yes -- which is why it's important for us to be honest about why we *think* things are true, and to have others check our logic.

That process is why *most* of us no longer believe the earth is the center of the universe.

If you have a good process for truth-checking, you can greatly reduce your ratio of mistaken beliefs.

@woozle @Elizafox

> honest about why we *think* things are true

bluntly, I'm not sure we CAN do that, honestly

like I'm not sure we're CAPABLE of it

maybe for a select few there is a self-awareness that can approach this kind of thing but then I have to ask, statistically: am *I* going to be one of those people?

probably not.

we can sometimes be honest about why we *THINK* we think things are true, but I'm not sure how much it helps in the long run any more.

maybe this is my cynicism. :\

@sydneyfalk @Elizafox

Not capable of any honesty *at all*? Or just not capable of being *completely* honest?

@woozle @Elizafox

I don't think we KNOW the reasons we do things in the first place.

So I guess "honest at all", really. That honesty is chance, at best.

But I don't LIKE that idea, so I'm vaguely disgusted at myself for having the belief, but -- based on my general human exposure, it 'fits better' than all other explanations: The idea that people tell themselves things and (if they're lucky) make up a chain of plausible motivation that FITS the actual motivations.

Even then, though...

@Elizafox @woozle

...that implies there can be a way to check the explanations, assuming 'actual communication' is a possibility (which, okay, I'm still a little hesitant to accept as being true as well).

But, again: This is possibly better explained by my cynical foundation of thought more than a real assessment of reality.

I admit it, though I'm not sure: I may actually give humanity a little less credit than it deserves.

So, um, thank you, I think? O_o This is a little weird for me.

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@sydneyfalk @Elizafox

> NOBODY knows all their biases
> NOBODY knows all their hero worships

Yes yes yes, I know all that. I mean, agreed, these are problems.

If they don't say it out loud, that's why it's necessary to query the reasoning behind their beliefs if those beliefs disagree with your own...

...and why I find it important to have conversations like this, to check my logic.

I don't take *anyone's* word for what's true, including my own. Beliefs should be able to withstand scrutiny.

@woozle You better believe it. Anyone will take anyone as infailable and anyone as dogmatic if they believe hard enough.

@Elizafox Oh, sure, there's one in every crowd... but has anyone *here* actually been doing that? You know, actual sentient beings?

@woozle The thing is he is very much revered in traditional socialist circles.

He is still taught as a matter of dogma to students in China, and was taught this way in the Soviet Union (the convenient bits of course, in all cases).

There are people who admire him as much as those who admire Hitler do. It's just the way of the world and it's what happens when you make a popular political treatise. Randroids act the same way. It's not unique to Marxists.

@Elizafox Okay. But most people know better, I should hope.

@Elizafox I mean... most people in a place like this, where there's some accountability for advocating bad ideas.

@woozle @Elizafox I'm not sure I'd call them sentient but they are eligible to vote

@woozle Marx literally was the foundation for most nations built on Communism (a really bad foundation at that, unless they believe that not helping others with nothing in return is a good thing).

@Elizafox I'm not surprised by this statement/fact.

Sure, authoritarian followers love heroes, which is why authoritarian leaders love to create them.

@Elizafox He’s good on economics and understanding the problems of capitalism. I read quite a bunch of his articles, and when it comes to discussing economics and capitalist structures, he’s even quite funny I think. So his economic theories are not discredited.

But perhaps he shouldn’t have ventured into other topics, which he clearly didn’t understand so well.

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